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Post Re: Another food question?


 
Hello fellow fish-keeper's, i've been busy with work, and alot of new fish that have been coming in. I'm back, and I'll give the fellow's at Dianchi a call tomorrow. Sorry to keep people waiting, but I'm short on time nowaday's, and just can't be on the computer all of the time. Anthony


Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:19 am
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
No way someone else that has to go to work during the day......go figure :wink:

All I can say Z is if the Dianchi people are going to discuss food with RD better tell um to pack a lunch.

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Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:23 am
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
zallyn\";p=\"43295 wrote:
All I can say Z is if the Dianchi people are going to discuss food with RD better tell um to pack a lunch
I can't decide weather that was put mildly or lightly :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Here:http://www.nycichlidforum.com/cichlid-news-yet-again-t13446.html


Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:29 am
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
I'll prep some popcorn in the meantime :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:17 am
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
I'll set up a projector in my living room.... :mrgreen:

Is this going to be on PPV? :boxin:


Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:10 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
Fischfan13\";p=\"43278 wrote:
Lets give Dainichi a break. The site was down for a week and came back very slow. Anthony (Zebra7) said that he will talk to them. Being rude is not the answer.


Fischfan, Im sorry if you misunderstood me, I was not trying to be rude. It was a joke.

I appologize if anyone thought I was disrespectfull.


Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:13 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
I contacted Dainichi earlier today, and made them aware of this thread. The ball is in their court, let's see if we can get a reply. Anthony


Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:31 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
Image





:mrgreen:


Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:47 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
He is warming up!!!!! :boxin:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:56 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
Fishguts\";p=\"43306 wrote:
zallyn\";p=\"43295 wrote:
All I can say Z is if the Dianchi people are going to discuss food with RD better tell um to pack a lunch
I can't decide weather that was put mildly or lightly :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Depends on where your sitting I guess, could really be both...................... :wink:

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....allow the child in your heart to overcome the adult in your mind....Image
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
I had a bit of extra time on my hands this morning, so I tossed the following info together which may help explain some of my personal thoughts on the subject of fish nutrition, and some of the various raw ingredients that are used in various feeds.


I would like to preface my comments by stating that in no way am I speaking on behalf of New Life International, my comments are nothing more than my personal opinion. I would also like so state up front that I am in no way an expert in fish nutrition, nor do I play one on TV. :)

I did my best to add references from non-biased accredited sources & studies where possible, just so that no one thinks that I make this stuff up as I go along.






Calcium montmorillonite clay & the 60 mineral compounds ......


This logic or theory (I don't believe there are any scientific papers on the subject of feeding clay to African cichlids) originates with mud/clay bottomed Koi ponds in Japan, and the belief by many Koi breeders that mud lined ponds produce better Koi than cement ponds. This logic is based on the belief that the natural mineral content found in mud enhances the fishes color & overal health, as do the natural feedstuffs found in a mud bottomed pond. With the fish feed costing over half the total costs of running a Koi farm, this would also translate into overall operation savings, espectially if organic & inorganic fertilisers are added to the pond (such a chicken droppings) to maximize the natural feedstuffs found in the pond.



I don't believe that the idea of the adsorption properties of clay ever played into this concept in the early days of breeding Koi, but is more of a recent event since the promotion & sale of this clay by health gurus over the past 25 years or so. While there are scores of vendors selling clay for the use in Koi ponds, I certainly don't see many freshwater or marine people jumping on the clay bandwagon.


While adding trace mineral elements to tap water that's void in certain minerals may be beneficial to some fish, a high quality food will contain an ample amount of these trace elements & minerals in the food itself. If for whatever reason one is still concerned about this, an easy fix would be to add something as simple as a teaspoon of a natural sea salt to your tank with each water change.

As an example ...........

Analysis: Coarse Grey Sea Salt
Chloride: 51%; Sodium: 32%; Water from crystalization: 7%; Sulfur: 1.12%; Zinc: .87%; Magnesium: .50%; Iron: .38%; Potassium: .26%;Manganese: .026%; Copper: .018%; Calcium: .012%; Silicon: .011%; Micro-Elements: Carbon: .034%; Strontium: .009%; Boron: .004%; Hydrogen: .003%; Fluorine: .001%; Nitrogen: .0008%; Argon: .0005%; Lithium: .0002%; Rubidium: .00014%; Phosphorus: .000112%; Iodine: .00007%; Barium: .00002%; Molybdenum: .000012%; Nickel: .000008%; Arsenic: .0000037%; Uranium: .0000038%; Vanadium: .0000024%; Tin: .0000009%; Cobalt: .00000045%; Antimony: .00000035%; Silver: .00000032%; Krypton: .00000024%; Chromium: .0000002%; Mercury: .0000002%; Neon: .00000012%; Cadmium: .000000112%; Selenium: .0000001%; Germanium: .00000007%; Xenon: .00000006%; Scandium: .00000005%; Gallium: .000000035%; Zirconium: .00000003%; Lead: .000000026%; Bismuth: .000000024%; Niobium: .000000023%; Thalium: .000000022%; Gold: .000000019%; Pico-traces of: Helium; Lanthanum; Neodymium; Thorium; Cerium; Cesium; Terbium; Yttrium; Dysprosium; Erbium; Ytterbium; Hafnium; Gadolinium; Prasodymium; Beryllium; Samarium; Holmium; Lutecium; Tantalum; Thulium; Europium; Tungsten; Protactinium.



If my count is correct, I counted a total of 71 minerals & trace elements. If I really felt the need, which I do not, I could buy a bag of natural sea salt for $20 or less, and at a teaspoon per water change it would probably last me into the next decade.





As far as clay being used to neutralize metabolic toxins, exactly what toxins would those be?



"Aflatoxicosis is now rare in the rainbow trout industry due to strict regulations enforced by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for aflatoxin screening in oilseeds, corn and other feed ingredients." (Juli-Anne Royes Russo and Roy P.E. Yanong - Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida)



Feed mills based in the USA use highly regulated certified sampling and analysis methods to guarantee quality and purity. In 1997 the US Food and Drug Administration mandated that all fish processors develop and implement Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point (HACCP) plans. HACCP plans identify and control potential hazards throughout food processing, from receiving ingredients, to their distribution, and their use.



In other words, at the manufacturing stage, the chances of fish food that is manufactured in the USA, with quality inspected USA based raw ingredients, containing mycotoxins, is slim to none, especially if that feed does not contain corn, cottonseed, or peanut meal.



The owner of New Life International has raised millions of fish over the past 35 years, and has never once ran into a "bad batch" of commercial food, nor has he even heard of such a thing in any commercial operation in Florida.



"During storage mold growth and mycotoxin formation can be controlled successfully by controlling moisture content of the feed. If the moisture content is below 12%, molds become metabolically inactive, and no mycotoxins are produced." (Peter Spring and Daniel F. Fegan - Alltech Inc.)



NLS contains a MAX of 8% moisture content, with a typical analysis of 7%, so that pretty much rules out mycotoxin formation during storage. And on that note, even back when NLS contained a Max of 10% moisture content, after 6 1/2 years of storage there was still no signs of mold in the container of food that the consumer in the link below purchased.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... hp?t=70793

Last I spoke with the owner of that 6 1/2 yr old container of NLS, his fish were all still alive & doing well. :)



Is using clay in fish food really a good idea?



"Due to these earlier findings, a variety of other common clay and zeolitic minerals are now being added to feeds as aflatoxin binders. Unfortunately, many of these binders due to their interaction with nutrients and other important feedborne chemicals may be nonselective in their action and may pose significant hidden risks." (Abdel-Wahhab et al., 2005).



This has always been something that I've been concerned about; if Montmorillonite Clay has such high adsorption properties, how does one know that non-toxic substances (such as essential nutrients & minerals) are also not being adsorbed?



The following comment was made by an MD who is actually very pro montmorillonite clay, yet he too warns about the potential of clay absorbing items of nutritional value, such as vitamins, along with any potential toxins.

http://www.cfsdoc.org/bentonite.htm

"It is important not to take any nutritional supplement at the same time as the bentonite. Especially when used with psyllium, the bentonite will absorb anything of nutritional value such as herbs, friendly bacteria, and vitamins, as well as toxins, bad bacteria and parasites. Be sure to wait 1 hour after drinking a bentonite shake before taking anything nutritional."



Both science, and common sense would lead me to believe that it if one simply wants to add minerals & trace elements to their fishes environment, there are far less complex (and perhaps safer) ways to do so, such as adding a small amount of natural sea salt to their tank water.

For those of you that feed montmorillonite clay to your fish, how many of you also consume this substance yourself with each & every meal?

Hmmmmmm.








As far as the extrusion process causing vitamins to be destroyed........

As long as a manufacturer takes into account that a certain percentage of some vitamins will be lost during the cooking process, and formulates their vitamin supplementation with this in mind, adjusting the ratios accordingly, it's actually possible that the vitamin & mineral content in their product could exceed one where the vitamins & minerals are added after the extrusion process. As an example, if Brand A uses L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate as their source of vitamin C (which is very stable) at a rate of 500 mg/kg and adds it before the extrusion process, and Brand B adds a "cold" post extrusion vitamin supplement of 100 mg/kg of vitamin C, which food do you think is going to have a higher vitamin C content when that food is packed into each retail container? Using the vast majority of extruding, pelleting, or baking processes found in the aquaculture industry, I can assure you that it won't be Brand B.

"Amino acids, several vitamins, and inorganic nutrients are relatively stable to heat, moisture, and oxidation that occur under normal processing and storage conditions. Some of the vitamins are subject to [i]some loss, however, and should be used in excess of the requirement."[/i] (NRC Nutrient Requirements of Fish 1993)

"If high quality, stable forms of vitamins are added at concentrations sufficient to compensate for manufacturing and storage losses, and the feed is stored under cool, dry conditions, manufactured diets can be stored for several months." (Coehlo, 1996).



More on various ingredients ...........



Wheat Germ - why is it that an ingredient that is almost always seen with a high inclusion rate only in Koi food, is the #2 ingredient by weight in certain "cichlid" formulas? I find it intriguing that a manufacturer would state that they use wheat germ as a source of vitamin E and B. While crude wheat germ can indeed provide a single source of vitamin E, I believe that it's lacking in a few of the B complex vitamins (B7,B9,B12) and I would also imagine that all manufacturers add vitamin E & the various B complex vitamins in their vitamin & mineral pre-mixes or coating. Having said that I have no idea why a manufacturer of cichlid food would have such a large inclusion rate of this single ingredient in the vast majority of their formulas?

Wheat Germ is carbohydrate and although it can also supply certain amino acids (protein), and a source of energy to fish, there are far better ingredients that can achieve those results for most cichlid species. (the average protein content of wheat germ is approx 24%) Once again Wheat Germ has always been favoured by Koi breeders as a "cold water" ingredient, due to it's supposedly high digestibility rate, and its supposedly high vitamin E content, as carp species do require a higher inclusion rate of vitamin E compared to many other fish species. (1993 NRC - Nutrient Requirements of Fish)

During winter months pond raised Koi also eat far less, so Wheat Germ has historically been used during these months as an extra boost in vitamin E. There's certainly nothing wrong with using Wheat Germ in a food that's formulated for species such as carp or Koi, quite frankly most serious Koi breeders expect it to be in a Koi formula (it seems to be a Japanese tradition in Koi formulas?), but a large inclusion rate of this raw ingredient certainly isn't required for optimum health in cichlid species. Also, if too much wheat germ (along with soybean meal) is used some of the carnivorous species of cichlids may have difficulty fully assimilating these ingredients, which means overall growth can be affected, as well as extra pollution being added to ones tank. What goes in, eventually comes out.

If a manufacturer wanted to ensure that their food contained a large inclusion rate of a natural form of vitamin E, they could simply add wheat germ oil, which is VERY high in vitamin E content. Of course it's a tad bit expensive, as according to the folks at Hikari it takes a full ton of wheat germ to make 100 grams of wheat germ oil. http://www.hikariusa.com/koi_wheat-germ.htm

While certain raw ingredients will provide the natural form of Vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol) the synthetic form (dl-alpha tocopherol) is almost always used in vitamin pre-mixes in aquaculture feeds due to the fact that it is far more stable. dl-a-tocopheryl is also the same form of vitamin E that's found in most multi-vitamins designed for human use.



Soybean Meal - Most high quality fish food formulas now use Soybean Isolate or Concentrate as their source of soybean, with one reason being the anti-nutritional factors contained in most Soybean Meal. While Soy Isolate costs more, like most things in life you get what you pay for.

You can read more on Soybean meal, and some of the nutritional problems that can be associated with its use, in the following link: http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/publica ... tion3.html



Shrimp Meal - generally comprised from the heads & shells of shrimp, not whole shrimp as many hobbyists believe. A rather low cost feed ingredient, that generally offers low cost results. As far as protein content or color enhancing properties, there's FAR better alternatives. It's primary use is generally to add palability to fish food.



Whitefish Meal - The term whitefish refers to cod, flounder, hake, haddock, and pollack. These fish are all caught for human consumption. After the fillets are removed, the heads and racks are ground, cooked and dried to produce whitefish meal.

"The whole fish is not usually used since cod and haddock are prized for the fillets. Since the fillets are used for human consumption, the fishmeal from these lean fish are made principally from the offal (white fish frames) remaining after filleting. "White" fishmeal commonly contains a higher concentration of ash (minerals) since the bony frames (head and racks) of previously filleted cod, haddocks, etc. are used. White fishmeal constitutes only 10% of the world fishmeal production." (Professor Richard D. Miles and Jacqueline P. Jacob, Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida)



Any hobbyist that's truly interested in what they feed their fish can research the amino acid profiles, as well as the crude protein, and even the digestible protein of most ingredients used in commercial fish feed.

Obviously the main players with regards to amino acids will be the fish/marine based ingredients.
Here's a good read on South Antarctic Krill Meal (Euphausia superba) which is the main ingredient found in the NLS Cichlid formula.
http://www.aquafeed.com/article.php?id=439&sectionid=5

You can also find the NRC's (National Research Council's) amino acid stats for the 4 most popular forms of fish meal, including both Herring meal, and Whitefish meal in the link below. Also note the CP (crude protein) content of each meal listed. Herring meal scores much higher than White fish meal.
http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/AGAP/frg/AFRIS/Data/332.HTM



While the overall quality of all fish meals are ultimately based on the quality of the raw product, as well as the processing methods, when it comes to overall protein content & their amino acid profiles, Herring meal & South Antarctic Krill meal are a difficult combo to beat.





South Antarctic Krill - finally something to get excited about, yet even though this ingredient might be touted a number of times on a manufacturers website, it's certainly never used as a primary, or main ingredient by the vast majority of manufacturers.


New Life Spectrum Cichlid ingredients:

Krill, Herring, Wheat Flour, Algae Meal, Soybean Isolate, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, Garlic, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal- Sterol (D3), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine, Biotin.



Notice that NLS contains a single starch (used as a binding agent), has South Antarctic Krill as the main ingredient, contains a large inclusion rate of Algae Meal, which consists of Seaweed, Kelp, Haematococcus pluvialis (a form of micro-algae) and also contains Spirulina. No real need to add wheat germ (another starch), there's plenty of natural vitamin E found in the raw ingredients, and NLS is also supplemented with a (minimum) of 200 mg/kg of vitamin E.




As previously stated, I have no problem with anyone who wants to try other foods, or even feed other foods to all of their fish exclusively, but personally I prefer to put my fishes health in the hands of someone who has been breeding, raising, and feeding Africans cichlids by the millions for the past 35 years.


Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:39 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
:boxin: :boxin: :boxin: RD you can not KO an oponent before they come into the ring! :batte_fou: It's foul.


Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:40 pm
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uuuuuummmmmmm...............


Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:01 pm
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Post Re: Another food question?


 
On a Sunday morning, :(snif): you are truly amazing RD, :lol:


Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:17 pm
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I'm getting my nomination in early! :bowdown:

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Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:31 pm
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